Optimizing Sleep For Health, Performance, Recovery, and Productivity with Dr. Derek Lawrence

Why is sleep so important and what even is good sleep? Well, it affects just about everything and (hint) it’s much more than just getting 8 hours (although that’s important. Most men struggle to get the QUANTITY and QUALITY of sleep needed to achieve optimal health, energy, focus, and performance. If you aren’t prioritizing the sleep you’re getting, or if you’re using substances to help you ‘wind down’ and fall asleep - you’re likely missing out on one of the best performance enhancers out there for your physical and mental performance. Learn what it means to actually have good sleep and strategies to help you get better and more productive sleep.

Connect with Dr. Derek at https://www.revivenatmed.com/ or on Instagram @revivenatmed, @verviafit or personally @docdereknd

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Men Made For More Podcast Episode 137: Optimizing Sleep For Health, Performance, Recovery, and Productivity with Dr. Derek Lawrence

Connect with Dr. Derek at https://www.revivenatmed.com/ or on Instagram @revivenatmed, @verviafit or his personal account @docdereknd

Men Made For More Podcast Episode 137: Optimizing Sleep For Health, Performance, Recovery, and Productivity with Dr. Derek Lawrence

[00:00:00] Dave Hey there mighty men. I'm your host, Dr. Dave Paczkowski founder of Men Made For More coaching, our business helps husbands level up their life. Their leadership and their legacy in marriage and in business. The purpose of this podcast is to bring together like-minded men that feel destined for big things in their life to provide you the resources and community that you need to lead yourself, your family and your business.

[00:00:30] If you've ever felt overwhelmed, frustrated, lost, or alone on your journey to a better and more purposeful life, you're in the right spot. You weren't designed to be average. So it's time to quit living that way today. I'm giving you permission to unlock your true potential and step into all that you were made for.

[00:00:48]All right guys, welcome to today's guest episode of the men made for more podcasts, uh, joined with a, uh, amazing professional and good friend of mine, Dr. Derek Lawrence, uh, Derek, excited to have you on here today. Thanks for [00:01:00] coming on for the show.

[00:01:01] Derek: [00:01:01] Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, you know, we've been talking about it for a long while now. Uh, and so it's the, I'm glad we were able to make some time to actually, you know, put it in the schedule and make it happen.

[00:01:12] Dave: [00:01:12] Yeah. And I can't think of how many conversations we've had, uh, just at times like, well, over an hour or two hours of conversation, or just go some good stuff. If we just had the podcast equipment and would have hit record, we could have launched some of those on their own. Yeah.

[00:01:25] Derek: [00:01:25] Right. I mean, I was talking to my marketing director, Kelly, who you've met, um, the other day and how, how just, it's an, it's an unfortunate, wasted opportunity that we don't sometimes just get followed around with a microphone. Um, not because what we say is. Brilliant. That's really not what it's about. It's, it's about the, the conversations that when you get a couple of professionals together, um, they just get really exciting and they get interesting and you, you, um, and they're, so they [00:02:00] tend to come contextually and that's just a really cool, um, that's a really cool way to have that, so, yeah.

[00:02:07] Yeah. You're right. I wish we would have had a mic on a lot of times, but Hey, we're here today, so let's see where it goes.

[00:02:12] Dave: [00:02:12] Yeah, this'll be another good one. I have a, I have no doubt about that, but let's, uh, let's give listeners to say listener jumped down a elevator with you, uh, 60 seconds to kind of explain your background briefly what you're up to you and what you're excited about.

[00:02:27] Derek: [00:02:27] Sure. Uh, so, uh, I'm a naturopathic doctor. Uh, I've been, uh, in Carlsbad since 2013. Our practice there is revived naturopathic medicine. We have an awesome team of docs there now that are working, not only in office and remote, um, and you know, our focus in naturopathic medicine. At our clinic in particular, it was really working as a team with our patients.

[00:02:49] And we're, we're getting folks who are either frustrated with the care they have been given, or maybe haven't been given, um, despite not feeling well, not being well or their [00:03:00] conditions not getting, uh, kind of navigated or handled appropriately or, or, or they're kind of stuck in their route to getting well.

[00:03:09] Uh, and so we ended up getting a lot of these people saying, is there something else. Go or I know something else is going on, but like I'm not getting these answers or, uh, we're, we're looking to kind of come at health from a different angle than simply disease management. And so our team of docs and myself personally, we've really worked, uh, to create a system to help like hold our patient's hand and like show them what's in front of them to be able to explore how to understand their health better.

[00:03:40] And I really. Believe that, you know, a team approach and it kind of whole systems approach of not just trying to say, well, if you have a thyroid problem, let's make sure we solely focused on your thyroid. Yeah. That's a piece of it, but it's so much, it expands so much more into the totality of your health that these [00:04:00] factors need to be taken into consideration.

[00:04:01] Right. Um, How do you build the toolbox to help yourself? That's what this podcast is, right? It's like helping people build a toolbox of the right questions to ask, you know, um, the, one of the most, uh, I think poignant things that I say in a lot of my visits is I may not have all the answers, but what we're trying to do is ask the right question.

[00:04:21] Dave: [00:04:21] Yeah, and so good. And, uh, you know, for those listening, I, I highly highly trust Eric and his practice and the docs there. We've, uh, With our physical therapy businesses work closely with them in the same way that we try and get to the root cause of why is your back pain going on? And we traced that upper body, lower body core w check movements, see how posture is, check how all those things are relating to it.

[00:04:43] And sometimes it's related to the back. Sometimes it's something. Completely separate. And, and yours is the same way from the medical side of things and deeper into the health. And what we realized even with back pain is we could address the movement side of things, but then working with people that are also seeing you, then there's, [00:05:00] we're getting into the stress and the sleep and the other inflammation, all those other things that we can, we can get someone moving perfectly.

[00:05:08] But if all those things are left on a dress, then we're only, we're only getting so much, so much progress on that.

[00:05:14] Derek: [00:05:14] Right. And you know, I've told you this, I've told Lindsay this, uh, a good physical therapist. Like yourself, like they are the naturopathic doctors of the body, of the physical kind of structural body, um, in the way of, it's not just about, Oh, it hurts here. Okay. Well, I'm going to touch here. Yeah. There's there's like, you have to do that.

[00:05:35] You got to understand that area, but, um, how often, if not all the time, do you find these interconnected pieces in whether it's. Other muscle groups, ligamentous damage, uh, tissue inflammation, structural postural genetic components as to why someone is structurally and physically in their physical body, uh, unwell.

[00:05:58] And you guys do an [00:06:00] amazing job at trying to understand that and not just say like, okay, well, I'll grab here and then we'll put heat here. Or, you know, it's like, it's so much more complete and that's what. You know, initially when we met, got me very, um, just excited about how you take that approach. And then of course you keep your mind open to the fact that there are other factors that can keep someone unwell outside of, you know, their physical body.

[00:06:31] Right. So,

[00:06:32] Dave: [00:06:32] Yeah, it's so good. And, and we, uh, speaking of our conversations, we've had, we, uh, you, you and I were to. Trying to think about like, where, where do we want to, where do we want to start with all this? Cause we talk about all the, you know, we have no shortage of ideas and things that we could talk for hours and hours on.

[00:06:48] And, uh, you and I both agreed that that sleep was a, a great starting point because whether, you know, whether people listening are trying to get in, in peak physical performance, uh, sleep is gonna play a [00:07:00] huge role in recovery. If you're a business owner, just trying to. Make sure that you're, you're showing up with the energy and focus.

[00:07:07] You need to, it's going to be important, even if you're trying to just lose weight and get rid of some of the, uh, the weight around the midsection. W we'll talk about sleep. Can, can play a role in that as well. And I know I'm missing hundreds of other applications, but why don't we, uh, I'm gonna kick it off to you of, of kind of general overview, like, what is sleep and why, why do we sleep?

[00:07:27] Derek: [00:07:27] Yeah. So we're going to start with the hardest and biggest and really unanswerable question as to like the what and the why, uh, you know, this is, um, uh, if you think about sleep, uh, from a like evolutionary standpoint, It doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And, um, I don't know if you're familiar with, uh, this sleep [00:08:00] scientist, Matthew Walker. Have you ever heard of him? He wrote an incredible book. Why we sleep, uh, recently, um, any dives into some of these, these, uh, these concepts, um, And, and the, the reason why I say like, it doesn't fully make sense is because when we're sleeping, we were like incredibly vulnerable.

[00:08:21] So you take yourself out of the 20, 21, um, you know, Situation here where like, you know, we sleep in the King size beds with cooling mats and, you know, and I pillows and, and, and ordering. So we eat, we talk about all that stuff. I take, take that and, you know, live with roofs over our heads and worry about bills.

[00:08:45] Right. Um, you know, put that human being thousands of years ago and. The threats to our lives were much more significant, especially like from, uh, [00:09:00] something could eat you standpoint. Right? And so being asleep unconscious for seven, eight hours during the night, when you can't see anything, it almost doesn't make sense.

[00:09:14] It's such a period of vulnerability that. And Matthew Walker makes this point that if it wasn't an important, it would've got weeded out. Like our tails they're gone. Right. You know, we got that little cock six left. Right. But you know, we've lost the tail. Uh, we evolved out of the need for that. How come sleep has stuck around.

[00:09:35] And it is because it has to be incredibly relevant and important for us from a physiological and mental functioning standpoint and evolutionary standpoint or else it probably would have gotten filtered out the best way to kind of understand what, what is sleep and, and why do we do has come from the, I mean, unfortunate experiments of sleep [00:10:00] deprivation.

[00:10:00] And then what happens when that, when those things happen, right? Cause that's, that's almost how you learn, what it does for you is that you deprive yourself of it and then see the catastrophic consequences of whether it's acute sleep deprivation or chronic sleep deprivation. So. To get, you know, to get a little bit more into, um, the, the ideas of like, of, you know, what is sleep to put it simply.

[00:10:36] This is a, a period of time where it seems that from a physical standpoint, we regenerate. Okay. Um, from a mental and psychological standpoint and this arguably I think is some of the most important and, and, and exciting components of sleep as a, as a business owner. Um, it, it, and [00:11:00] a human being on this moderately stressful planet, uh, it, there's a capacity of kind of psychological filtering.

[00:11:12] That sleep does for us. Um, as far as allowing degrees of emotional resilience or, or not, if you're not getting enough, a emotional capacity to kind of file and store things in an inappropriate place of this is important. Uh, this is not almost a what to remember and what to forget. Um, and. It seems that that there's kind of across the, across the mind body kind of connection.

[00:11:51] There, huge, crucial pieces to functioning as a stable, mental, emotional, psychological human being. And then [00:12:00] as a physically resilient one as well.

[00:12:05] Dave: [00:12:05] Yeah, that's so good. And, uh, I love the, the point of, uh, it looks totally different now than it did thousands of years ago. And it, the, uh, you know, speaks to the effects that it has to have. How would you know, how would someone listening? And, uh, I know people are going to come, come to the com, listening to the show with, with different starting points of, of what they know about sleep, but for someone that, uh, you know, whether you know a lot about it or a little, what, how can we tell on ourselves of if we're getting quality sleep?

[00:12:33] Cause some people will say, Oh, I can run fine on. Five hours, four hours or five hours. Like I don't need sleep, sleep for the week. And, uh, or if we're not getting the quality of sleep we need, how can we, what are some ways to, uh, to know, because some people, and I don't know the specific studies, but I know I've read that.

[00:12:50] You know, some people can have high reports of, well, I think I'm performing good, but then on the actual test, they're, they're not. So these things are almost like, like silent symptoms that are [00:13:00] going on, where people are sleep deprived and they don't even know it. What are some things that, uh, people can look out for?

[00:13:05] Derek: [00:13:05] Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point. And it comes up almost daily in the clinic, not only in the realm of sleep, but, um, gut health is another one where we sometimes say like, you don't know what good feels like if you don't know what good feels like, you don't know what trash feels like, because you might just be living in a really.

[00:13:24] You know, dysfunctional reality and, and you have been for a very long time and you just think that's normal and you've adjusted to it. And so if you don't know what good feels like, it's hard to have that contrast. Right. And I think sleep is, uh, is an aspect of that has an aspect of that as well. So the things that I tend to look for, um, are.

[00:13:47] You know, and I ask almost everybody, these in our, in our intakes is one how, like I asked them when they're going to bed when they're getting up. Okay. So those absolute times, because the first thing I'm looking for [00:14:00] in that is are they giving themselves an opportunity to get seven and a half eight hours of sleep?

[00:14:06] And I chose my words. Specifically there are you giving yourself an opportunity to get that much time? So a lot of times we get the, Oh, you know, I go to bed at 11 and I will wake up at six. Okay. So like your ability, if you slept literally every second of that, you would get the bare minimum seven hours of sleep.

[00:14:29] I assure you because I've done enough sleep studies on people. You're not sleeping that whole time. You might think you are, but you're not. Uh, and you know, some of the sleep trackers can give you relatively rudimentary understanding of that as well. Um, but it's not uncommon for people to be UN uh, not consciously awake, but awake, uh, for any worse from 15 to an hour of that chunk of 50 minutes to an hour [00:15:00] of that chunk of time that they think they're sleeping.

[00:15:02] Right. So the first thing is like, are you giving yourself an opportunity to succeed? Because if you aren't, that's the first step. Right. Um, and, and then yes, we get the, well, I do, I, I functioned just perfectly fine with this. I go like, Okay. I don't believe you, but I believe you think that, um, and, and getting, getting to your point again, again, I don't, I don't recall the specific study, um, but you were commenting on this adaptation to, um, dysfunction as basically sleep deprivation can compromise performance mentally and physically.

[00:15:47] And we, we, I mean, it can be measured objectively, but subjectively subjectively, from our perspective, we're doing just as well, which is the [00:16:00] scary spot, right. Because we think we're performing just as well as we were. When not sleep deprived, but we're actually 15, 20, 25% loss of performance mentally and physically.

[00:16:13] Um, and then of course, when someone else is going to bring that to your attention, Hey, you're not quite as blank as you blank. Right. And you're like, or as you used to be. You're like, what are you talking about? Of course. I mean, all defense of it, et cetera, but like the numbers literally wouldn't lie. And so, um, that, that goes back to this line that I, that I love.

[00:16:32] Like, I believe you, I believe you think that. Right. And, uh, and so with that, like absolute, absolute kind of time sleeping frame is important to know. And then I go, well, how many times do you wake up? Right. You waking up at night. Um, how many times are you waking up? And then of course the, the, why do you wake up feeling good?

[00:16:56] You wake up feeling like still tired. Like you want 30 [00:17:00] more minutes. Do you wake up like earlier than you want to be waking up and you're just like wired. Do you have a hard time initially? Yeah. Do you have a hard time initiating sleep? Um, all of these, all of these are questions to, to dive into the. Um, the specifics of it, because so many people don't, they just kind of think of sleep as this time to be unconscious and well, sleep is, sleep is not being unconscious.

[00:17:29] Sleep is actually a very active process. Um, it's just that we're not consciously a part of it. So looking at the hard criteria of just like, do you give yourself an opportunity to succeed, um, in and within though within that framework? Are there signs of dysfunction of difficulty initiating sleep, frequent wakings.

[00:17:51] Are you waking feeling, you know, um, tired. Um, do you snore, does your partner tell you you [00:18:00] snore? Um, those are, those are keys for me, um, from a deeper medical standpoint. And now it seems like a good a time as any that to dive into that, um, high blood pressure is something that I'm. Frequently diving into sleep if that is, uh, on the table.

[00:18:21] Okay. Um, It will sleep, uh, high blood pressure, especially as it pertains to sleep apnea. And this is probably something we should spend a little bit of time talking about. Um, and sleep apnea is a condition in which you actually stop breathing during the night, or there's a condition called hypoxia, uh, which is in which you start to breathe very shallowly.

[00:18:46] You're still breathing, but it's very shallowly. And what happens is your. Uh, blood oxygen saturation, which, um, people are getting a little bit more familiar with this there, the little pulse oximetry you can put in your finger and they measured the capillary, uh, [00:19:00] the management of the blood flow to the capillaries.

[00:19:01] They can give you insight into how saturated your, your red blood cells are with oxygen in a condition, sleep apnea, or even sleep hypopnea. Your blood oxygen saturation can drop. And pretty significantly at room temperature, both you and I. I don't have one sitting around me right now are probably above, well, hold on, take a deep breath.

[00:19:30] 97 98, right. Um, And, and, and it really should be around there, uh, in a condition of sleep apnea, hypopnea, uh, blood oxygen saturation can drop into the eighties and severely high seventies. And that, that matters because if you think about what your red blood cells. Do they're designed to carry oxygen and oxygen is literally fuel.

[00:19:57] They're like the spark plug for us being able to [00:20:00] produce energy. Okay. Um, in these instances, uh, one of the common Adam patients, because your brain then gets a sense that there's not enough oxygen or your blood pressure will increase to move more blood faster. So it's getting a sense that, Hey, we need more oxygen.

[00:20:19] Well, One way to get more oxygen. If we can't absorb it as much, because we're not breathing stuff is to increase the pressure, to move the blood faster and harder, to get more oxygen to those tissues. And so it's not uncommon to see, um, sleep, play a role in high blood pressure. And that's, we kind of talked about it through the apnea lens, but I think their cortisol dysfunction there's, uh, there's a, a reason to look at it as well.

[00:20:46] And. You know, we're already starting to dabble into, um, the challenge of even like talking about a subject like this, because, and this is, this is the blessing. And the curse [00:21:00] is because it just permeates so many different pieces and to truly like, get it, you actually need like an anatomy physiology kind of lesson to, to, to put it on.

[00:21:11] I think the pedestal that it deserves. Right. And so, um, you know, we'll have to, we'll have to make sure to give a little bit of an intro bio lesson along the way as some of this stuff happens. So, um, but to circle back on the big key things here, we're looking at what's their sleep window. Is there any noticeable, uh, that they perceive as sleep dysfunction, difficulty getting to sleep, waking up, feeling like trash in the morning.

[00:21:37] Okay. Um, and then snoring. You know, or themselves literally waking up gasping for air or their partner telling them they're snoring. These are really obvious signs there. So if your partner, if you're listening to this and your partner snores, um, whether or not they're caring about their sleep, you probably should dage them in the direction [00:22:00] to say like, Hey hun, something's up.

[00:22:03] Dave: [00:22:03] Hmm. Is there a, and I'm guessing some of these, these things are definitely gonna operate on a spectrum too, where someone's like, well, I'm not waking up gasping for air and, and maybe their blood pressure's okay. Maybe they likely don't know what their blood pressure is or maybe it's maybe it's okay. But, uh, then what are those other symptoms too?

[00:22:21] Cause I keep getting stuck on if we're getting a 15 to 25% or whatever you said, loss of performance. That's, uh, that's not necessarily visible. And I guess how to, like, how does someone identify this? Do you think everyone should just should get a thorough assessment? Or are there some self ways to kind of be like, could this be, cause these for me to be like, Oh yeah, I would definitely don't have that.

[00:22:45] But then it's like, well maybe I do at a low level to some degree.

[00:22:49] Derek: [00:22:49] Yeah. So, you know, a couple of the more like intangible ways that I've seen this present, um, clinically. [00:23:00] Okay. Is feeling stuck from a kind of motivation standpoint. Um, I call them like the blinders. Like I can do the things I need to do that are in front of me. And usually that's like my job and my family. And that's about it, right. But the, the creativity, the capacity to solve and see how to navigate some of the bigger problems is, is really narrowed. So if you're finding yourself overwhelmed, um, with what feels like an infinite amount of things on your plate, and it's overwhelming, you. Sleep would be a way something that I would be discussing because one of the things that I have found almost across the board with, and I see this a lot in my entrepreneur client, a patient base.

[00:23:59] There's [00:24:00] always fires to put out it always problems to solve, but arguably the most important role of that person is to be the creative lead of that company. And I know I've mentioned this to you personally, is that things feel like they're going the best from a business standpoint when I'm creative. And when I'm solving problems and, and tackling my kind of creative ideas, literally sitting down and accomplishing this podcast is great. You know, that's one of them. Right. But, but to, to have the capacity to wrap your head around that when there's, when you're getting pulled in a hundred different directions, which is running a business, Um, can be hard.

[00:24:51] And one of those rate limiters, one of those blinders of being able to figure that out is definitely sleep. Um, it will support [00:25:00] your creativity. It will support your problem solving. And this is measured. Like there's been tests, there's been studies on this. That is, is an objective truth. Um, Those matter less than the feeling of like, I can't just, I don't know.

[00:25:15] I'm just, I'm just busy. I can't seem to get to it. Um, and, and sleep plays a big role in that. The next thing would be like truly drive. Uh, and this is, uh, this starts to cross into like drive libido, uh, you know, um, Desire for intimacy. Um, but like all of those things that they're, they're, they're not, we're not talking just about, you know, sex though that matters.

[00:25:48] Um, but also like motivation to, to show up, to be your best to maybe from your perspective, like from your client to get to the gym, [00:26:00] to not just lift, but keep. Striving towards that, you know, what do you guys call it?

[00:26:07] Dave: [00:26:07] you got it. Speaking that you're speaking to

[00:26:10] Derek: [00:26:10] yeah, right. I pay I've been around long enough. I've been around you enough. Um, so if that's on the table, I'm, I'm asking about sleep because not only will it truly play a role in some of the neuro-transmitter component of what drives that, but also things like testosterone. Right. Um, there is there's, there's a statistic out there that like chronic sleep deprivation will compromise testosterone levels of five, 10, 15%, uh, or, or even, you know, what they put it as in a, uh, in a more tangible way that sleep deprivation will give you the testosterone level of someone 10 years, your senior.

[00:26:54] Great. So, you know, and this, um, this I've seen in clinic [00:27:00] in 20 year olds, right. Um, driving hustling, um, video games feel like way too, like just, just going, um, sleeping, you know, Four or five hours. And you know, of course alcohol use is rampant, which is just trashes your sleep on top of that. We can talk more about that later, but they're showing up and they're just like, I can't, I can't perform, I'm performing poorly.

[00:27:33] Uh, I'm concerned. And you're like, well, yeah, like your test testosterone is legitimately low and you're 27. Okay. What's wrong because that's not the kind of person you're about to slap testosterone cream on, right? If that's the type of person, um, that you have to say, like what is getting in the way here.

[00:27:54] And as we know, testosterones are important hormone in men and women, uh, [00:28:00] for sex drive or libido for lean body mass, you know, um, putting on muscle, uh, and drive and motivation. So those would be, these are more like intangible things that are like, Hey, like, Still might be up here,

[00:28:17] Dave: [00:28:17] That's that's really good too. Yeah. Cause I, I know from, from myself and we've talked about with, with running, running the business of there's the there's the in the business type stuff of, yeah. You got to see the appointments, coach, the clients do the things that need to get done, but then there's

[00:28:31] Derek: [00:28:31] the stuff you were trained to do.

[00:28:32] Dave: [00:28:32] then there's the, on the business stuff of, how do we actually grow this? How do we lead a team? How do we scale? How do we, you know, how do we more effectively market? How do we market our services? There's all these other things that, that come into it. And I've noticed that the times where I have been sleep deprived, those things are much harder to do because they aren't necessarily, the urgent things are the things that we need to grow the business, but you can get by days, weeks, months, unfortunately as a business owner, [00:29:00] without.

[00:29:00] Really doing that stuff. And if you're established your, your businesses is still gonna gonna run. But you know, the other thing I noticed too is with a, and maybe this relates to some listeners too, if you're listening to a podcast like this and you're like, Oh, that's, that's really interesting, but I like having trouble processing it or having in someone's going to be over your head.

[00:29:21] Or, you know, if you're, if you're not familiar with this, but at the same time, I've listened to, I think at times when I've been low on sleep and it's like, something can. It, it just doesn't interest me the same way. I can't process it. Normally I'm like trying to take notes during it or go in. And if I just there's times I don't have the motivation to it.

[00:29:35] I'm kind of just like putting it on the background just to do it, to kind of keep myself awake. Like those are, those are other things that I was, I was thinking about as you were, as you were

[00:29:44] Derek: [00:29:44] Yeah. It's like that processing, you know, because we've all been, we've all been in a plate place where. Things are firing on all cylinders. We'll hopefully, hopefully you've experienced that. Like, especially like mentally [00:30:00] I, and then we've also all, most of us have been in places where it's like, I can't. I just, I don't have the, we call it like, I call it bandwidth.

[00:30:08] I don't have the bank and with, to deal with that right now. And like, I mean, that even happens during the day. Right. And that, like, that, that, as it pertains to our cortisol levels, our degree of caffeination and brainwaves, and we call a Denison and the brain. And we can talk about that a little bit too, because I think that's a really interesting piece.

[00:30:30] I think we should dive into some of that. Hormones that regulate sleep. Um, the we've all been in those places of like we're firing or we're not. And when that's, when you're not, and you need to be, and when you're not, and you need to be constantly like, it's it, it's, it then becomes an additional stressor on your psychology, right on your psyche, that compounds. [00:31:00] Sleep and stress and all the other kind of, uh, uh, that dysfunctional that dysfunctional cycle because, um, well, it does.

[00:31:10] Dave: [00:31:10] and what are, uh, you know, when it, when it comes to the, you know, say, say you're sleep deprived where I wouldn't go through the seasons where. You're you're busy. There's seasons where you have a lot going on and maybe it's a little harder to come from from sleep. I'm sure new parents can relate to that.

[00:31:26] I'm sure. Uh, you know, business owners can definitely relate to seasons of that, but what are the considerations around? What should people keep in mind when they know a season like that's coming up or maybe they're in the middle of it? What considerations come from a training standpoint from a. Uh, exercise standpoint from a creativity standpoint, how do you have any thoughts on how people can structure their schedule?

[00:31:47] Because we're, I really crashed last, uh, last spring, uh, coming into COVID no idea what was going on. We, my wife just came on, Lindsay just came on, full-time into our business. I'm just like, go and go and [00:32:00] go and being like, okay, I don't know what the future holds. I need to keep our family afloat and to keep our business afloat.

[00:32:05] And I'm trying to work out really hard and my sleeps less. And in hindsight, those things were definitely not good to compound on top of each other. But what can you speak on that in terms of those considerations of when you're in that sleep deprivation of how, where do you need to modify? Cause you can't.

[00:32:21] We like to do it all. And I know a lot of people that like to, you know, okay, we're running on low sleep, but we're still going to do all those things that I was doing before at the same intensity or even higher, because I'm so wired up on cortisol. Can you speak at all of that?

[00:32:33] Derek: [00:32:33] Yeah. And yes I can. And I can tell you it that's complicated because you start to marry in this mixture of the physiology. You start to marry in this mixture of the human being. And what it, and then the environment that, that human being is in. Right. So there's the macro environment of, [00:33:00] of, well, like for a great example.

[00:33:04] COVID and what it's done to the world over the last 18 months now, or almost right. Um, there's the internal physiological environment, which, uh, Which responds to that and responds to our perception of stress, but then also inherently will kind of create its own cycles that then if you want to change well, you're also fighting against something that has you kind of built this, you built this rhythm and now you're looking to change it.

[00:33:38] And so you're also fighting your, what you've already put in place. So you programmed at some respect your physiology to do. And then there's the human piece of this that, that, you know, we, we sometimes don't, um, we're sometimes our own worst enemy. Right. Um, and where we may [00:34:00] need rest, we choose the opposite.

[00:34:05] Um, so gosh, um, So to, to, to, to understand that, right? You want to know what someone's kind of external stressors are like what's on their plate from a stress standpoint. Um, that just helps you get to know this. Uh, you know, this human as a person and to connect with them, um, to empathize, to sympathize, or to maybe give them a little bit, uh, you know, the, the, the tough love of like, come on really, you know, and, you know, when you work with people, you know, you know which avenues, you know, you've learned which avenues you can kind of push on, which one do you can't.

[00:34:48] But, you know, I think one of the things that I think a lot of my patients appreciate about me is just. You know, we're, uh, we're just real. We're gonna, we're just gonna call it. Like we see it. We're not going to blow any smoke up [00:35:00] your ass. And it's just, I like to challenge ideas. Some people like that, some people need it.

[00:35:06] Um, so getting to understand what's up, what's taking up space on the plate and I think where my specialty lies is also then saying, okay, well, what, what have we created from a, um, a physiological, maybe monster thus far? And so. I'm going to take a small little tangent here the forces at play in sleep.

[00:35:34] All right. Cause I think that this is a good place to interject those and I'll, I'll hit on maybe three things. One being stressful. Right? And this is cortisol or, well, we have a few stress hormones. Cortisol is a major one made by the adrenal glands, which sit on top of your kidneys. Okay. Um, they are, uh, cortisol secreted in a diurnal rhythm.

[00:35:58] Diurnal meaning, [00:36:00] uh, different amounts at different times during the day. So it's actually supposed to be nice and high in the morning and then taper off in the early afternoon. It'd be nice and low in the evening. If you think about what stress hormone is designed to do, it is designed to help us rise to the occasion.

[00:36:16] Okay. Um, and so we want that in the morning and we don't want that when it's dark out and we're trying to initiate sleep to rejuvenate regenerate, et cetera, and cortisol also. So it has this, this diurnal rhythm, but it also responds to our own stressors. Um, so those can be perceived psychological stressors.

[00:36:41] Those can also be kind of physiological stressors. So, this is where, when someone is stressed out, you know, from all the things they need to do, it's not uncommon that they are actually secreting higher levels of cortisol. It's still happening generally in this diurnal rhythm, though, I [00:37:00] have seen flat-lined rhythms before I've seen totally flipped rhythms where there.

[00:37:06] Very low in the morning and very elevated. And in the evening that person almost always has sleep problems. And you could measure this. There, there saliva tests, urine tests. We look at it commonly because when anyone has a sleep issue, it's certainly something that's on the table to say like, is this participating because it helps us tailor their treatments better.

[00:37:27] So. Cortisol is, is an important, um, important hormone as it pertains to being able to wind down and initiate sleep. It has attains in literally everything else, uh, from metabolism to stress too. I mean, if you think of what cortisol does, it's, it's almost like the antithesis to testosterone. Testosterone is there to burn fat and build lean body mass cortisol is there to multiply your fat cells.

[00:37:56] Right. And, uh, and actually [00:38:00] destroy your lean body mass. Okay. So it's catabolic in nature versus testosterone, which is animal like anabolic building, catabolic, breaking down. Um, we need some of this, right? All of living is, is a balance between all this stuff. But when cortisol, secretion becomes out of balance is a big problem there.

[00:38:21] Right? So. Evaluating this, understanding it and then maybe doing it, something about it. Because in fact, there are tools not only in a behavioral toolbox, but also even like a supplemental toolbox that can be useful at helping to understand that. And you know, a little plug for blood sugar regulation, it plays a large role in that, but we cannot talk about that today, cause that that's another seven hour conversation.

[00:38:46] So. You know, w what's your, you know, what, what's your kind of knowledge on, on the cortisol front and like, do you, do you, do you, um, you know, is that a conversation you're having with any of your, um, [00:39:00] any of your clients that you're working with or what's your kind of knowledge of it?

[00:39:04] Dave: [00:39:04] Yeah. And I, I think, you know, similar to blood sugar being a separate conversation, I know we we've talked about circling back on a full, full cortisol and stress conversation for sure. Uh, I, I like to, you know, I definitely bring awareness to it with anyone that has any degree of. Of stress, which is most, most everyone, but especially the, you know, the, the busy entrepreneurs that the people that are in that like, Grind phase.

[00:39:28] And you can tell they're very upregulated, we'll have the conversation, but it a little more, I guess, the lifestyle from, from my side of things versus actually diving into maybe the physiology behind it things, the, the basics of, of. Breathing of, of schedule management of making sure that you're structuring your day in a way with boundaries and cutoff times.

[00:39:49] And when you're checking your phone, when you're doing work. So some of those things are the, you know, the basics for that, like getting out in sunshine, taking, uh, taking a walk and being able to do those things are the, [00:40:00] you know, the, the low hanging fruit, if you will of, Hey, let's try this. See if that helps.

[00:40:04] But once, uh, you know, beyond that, the, the. I guess the more physi physiological stuff behind it, uh, is, is more not,

[00:40:12] Derek: [00:40:12] you, you mentioned something really interesting though. You can't get a bad email at nine o'clock at night. If you don't look at your email, right? Yeah. Like you, you, you can't ruin your C with a bad email at nine 30, if you're not looking at it. And like, that might be, that might sound like kind of glib, but it's also like, It can wait most, most of the time it can wait. Emergencies, usually show up ringing emails could wait till the next morning.

[00:40:45] We're guests. What your hormone capacity to actually like navigate that because you slept well. And now it's nine, eight 30 and your cortisol is nice and high. You're actually there showing up hormonally like, Oh, that's like not [00:41:00] as big of a fire at nine in the morning as it is at nine at night. And, and that's something too that, that I don't think is a really appreciated as much as that your capacity to show up is different at different times during the day as it pertains to hormones.

[00:41:19] So it would behoove us to try to keep those as ideal and stable as possible. So we'll, we'll, we'll shelf cortisol as a hormone that will dictate and can dictate. Sleep amongst a whole host of other things, but it plays a role in their cortisol is too high. You're going to be pretty fired up. And in fact it can be very challenging to get to sleep.

[00:41:41] And it's not uncommon that I see elevated levels of cortisol at night, participating why people were waking up. And I know that because we can help it lower it, and then they sleep

[00:41:52] Dave: [00:41:52] Yeah, I want to get in some of the other hormones here in a minute, but the only other thing to that too, is I know cortisol is supposed to spike in the morning, but have a, [00:42:00] you have a client specifically, I'm thinking of who getting it a side hustle business off the ground while working his nine to five.

[00:42:05] And he'd say he'd roll out of bed. Grab his phone, check his email at like four 30 in the morning. And, uh, be like, Oh, I had to start sending out all these emails to put a fire out. And I think it's the same thing. Maybe, maybe not to the same degree, but you know, is that a concern in the morning too?

[00:42:20] Because he was, he found himself really stressed out and be like, I have to do this. And it's like, well, is that fire really gonna matter? If you wait another hour, if you give yourself some time to just like wake, do five minutes of movement and breathe and exercise and get into the day that how's, that gonna affect cortisol with the first thing in the morning, part of it and how that affects maybe the rhythm throughout the day.

[00:42:39] Derek: [00:42:39] yeah, we'll digest this statistic that most heart attacks happen on a Monday morning on the way to work. Do you like, do you need to see, do you need to like, say anything more? It's about this abrupt stressor. Right. And that's like a lot of times what these things end up doing to [00:43:00] us early in the morning.

[00:43:01] It's you go from zero to 60 instantly or the potential is there when at four? Yeah. Like he's probably not as hormonally there as he needs to be from a cortisol standpoint and then probably testosterone standpoint. But also if he's getting a bit four, if this guy didn't go to bed at eight o'clock. He's sleep deprived, chronically not only in the short term and then chronically overall, meaning that, like that resiliency, that problem solved.

[00:43:34] It's just not there. And this is like, I have, I've had like lots of conversations with like some, uh, you know, business coaches and, and, uh, and other entrepreneurs with like, we gotta hustle. I gotta hustle and say, Yeah. Like I, I get that. I really, really do. Um, and I know how hard [00:44:00] it is to kind of balance and navigate hustling because I still have to do that.

[00:44:05] Right. Um, and being in it for the long haul, which is sustainability, you know, I just wrote it again, small tangent, one of our newsletters for the clinic. That, um, that I wrote, I write them all personally. It w it was, it was, um, inspired by one of my patients. Who's the CEO. And I, you know, I, I, I, in our visit, I was saying like, have you ever thought about, like, looking at your health and your lifestyle as a reflection of your business?

[00:44:45] I think I might've mentioned this to you too. Um, And how, like who's going to buy that. Like if it's anxiety, riddled, you know, medication list, sleep deprived, [00:45:00] you know, overweight, not happy. Who's buying that. Like what, what, what kind of valuation can you put on that? If that is what this business. I don't want to say requires, but has done or requires to kind of existed.

[00:45:16] That's not appealing to me, you know, to look at that as an asset or a liability in your business valuation. Right. And so I just thought that was a, I had never heard this before. I don't know where it came from. It just one of those things that, you know, you pop it pops into your head. Um, but it really, it, it, it hit.

[00:45:35] And it hit him. And, um, I just thought I would share that. So I shared in the news. I just think it's an interesting way to look at, uh, look at that. Like who's going to buy your life, you know, that stressed out, strung out CEO, business owner, you know, w is that what it takes to run this business? Cause I don't know.

[00:45:57] Dave: [00:45:57] And expand that even more into what are your relationships [00:46:00] look like? What, uh, what are some of those other areas real life too? It's like, if those are a mess, it's like, well, what am I selling my soul for the, for the dream of being a CEO of a successful successful company. And I love what you said about the.

[00:46:12] You know, the, the balance of hustle and grind and, and rest, I think too many people look at it from a, a micro scale of how much work can I get done this week? Same thing we see with people, how much workout can I get in this week? I'm hitting, two-a-days, I'm doing this. I'm trying to get fit, but it's like, okay, well, if your body crashes, if you can hit a hard for three months, you crash for three months.

[00:46:29] It's like, versus the person who's six months consistent, same thing in business. And being able to have those boundaries is one of the biggest changes I made myself as like a, during these, during this. Work day when I'm working, I'm going to work like super focused on focusing on when I can, can continue to get sleep in line.

[00:46:45] Like I show up better versus just like having work stretch out throughout the, throughout the course of the day and probably getting less done on the overall scheme of it.

[00:46:55] Derek: [00:46:55] Yeah. And you know, I on this topic, [00:47:00] I, I, I'm not sure if there's a generational piece to that where like our, our kind of generation of pho, we just kind of value some things differently or have seen other kinds of generations do this work to the bone. And, and that's not to sound appealing to me. And, and so, so, because I think that I see, I think I see the kind of mentor of, of, of balance in two groups, uh, or, or the ideal, uh, of like people can see as relevant and that's in.

[00:47:47] Uh, in our kind of age group, which I don't know whether or not you want to put that out into the ether, but it's not crazy old. It's not crazy young. We're in our mid thirties. Yeah, the sweet spot. [00:48:00] Yeah. Um, and that like my, like 78 and older patients where I think they've just like, they've been, they, they like, they did it and they're like, no, like.

[00:48:11] Yeah, got it. I think they kind of figured it out. They're like, no, like you gotta, you gotta balance. And part of that is because I think they can't physically do what they used to and they've been having to be forced to, to kind of reconcile this, this balance of expanding and saving and conserving energy.

[00:48:30] Right. Um, and they tend to be big advocates of that and that's um, that's, uh, And I mean, maybe something comes with, you know, all of that experience. Hopefully I'll get there to know, um, that, that lens, this different perspective of, Oh, if I knew that then you know, then I would have done some of these years a little bit differently.

[00:48:55] I dunno. I mean, that was just kind of spit balling it there, but I see that [00:49:00] strongly in those two kind of age categories and, um, yeah, resonates with me right now.

[00:49:07] Dave: [00:49:07] Yeah. And I talk all the time about, you know, I've moved from, I used to do time management of how do I squeeze more into my day? How do I maximize the minutes of my day? You're very scheduled, focused to now, um, Yeah, for myself, for clients, it's like, let's talk energy management. How do you get the most quality out of those hours?

[00:49:27] Because I found I can work for, you know, if I get four hours of quality work, can Trump eight hours of distracted work and, and, uh, not showing up as much too. So that's, that's been a major shift for me is okay. Let's worry less about, you know, optimizing every second, every minute, trying to squeeze everything into how's your energy, how are you showing up?

[00:49:46] How. How much can you get out of those hours? And this applies to work. This applies to relationships with your spouse, your kids. You're like, how are you showing up in those times, if it's not enough to spend four hours with your kids, if you're a zombie, but you know, a [00:50:00] short shot of, of really quality time, I'm sure they're going to remember and value more.

[00:50:06] Derek: [00:50:06] the, um, the battle for attention is, is the war we are fighting right now. It's attention. It's what Google is paying and Instagram and Facebook are paying millions of dollars to take from us. Right. Is it an Amazon? They're, they're they're bad link for our attention, not energy, not money, attention. And unfortunately, like in some respects they're winning. Um, and, and it comes at a cost of the only thing we cannot get back. That's time. Right. You can make more money. You can chop more wood, you can grow more plants, you can work more hours or whatever. Right. But you can't get [00:51:00] time back. And that's a very important thing to keep in mind. And then you go like, well, why should I be sleeping eight hours of it?

[00:51:15] Right. And the, the answer to that is because. The time in which you are not, has a greater capacity to be spent efficiently. And, uh, and that allows you to be more discerning with what and who you're giving your time and attention to versus pissing it away.

[00:51:44] Dave: [00:51:44] Yeah. And I, I love to, you know, that, that strikes a chord with me of moving to like results. Like what are the results you're getting in your life, in your business? It's, uh, you know, not at the expense of your health, but like when you look at all the, all the pillars, [00:52:00] if you will, of, of health and finances and business and relationships, like.

[00:52:04] What is that? What is the fruit you're getting from that? What are the results you're getting from that? Because people were too many people were well, I'm working. 60 hours a week. And I'm, you know, I'm putting all this, like, it's so much about like how much time you're putting in, but it's like, well, what if you could put in 40 and get the same result?

[00:52:21] Like what if you could put in 20 and, and what's going out with your relationships, like, what's the what's going on with your health and not, uh, I worked out. 20 hours this week, but like, how was your actual health, how are the markers of your health? How is your, how do you feel like all those things are much more important than wearing the badge of honor of like, well, look at how much I'm doing.

[00:52:40] This is where I'm going to get my worth from showing everyone how much I'm doing verse is it, is it showing? And that's a tough, honest reflection too. I think

[00:52:47] Derek: [00:52:47] 100% like that. The, I think the, this little part of the conversation doesn't come from the soap box, it comes from the trenches. It comes from the [00:53:00] trenches. Right. Um, in, in, you know, sitting here as a man trying to say, what does it mean to be. And what do I want out of all of this? What is the end game? Um, and there's no right or wrong answer to that. It's just like, what is it for you? What fills your cup? Um, and sometimes you got to figure that out. And so like, that's what this whole, that's what this whole journey is kind of about, you know? And, and, and so, For anyone listening to this, ask yourself like, is your physical therapist, is your doctor like things like having this mentality when they're working with you? I mean, wouldn't that be great? Uh, we, we do, we do. And I think that that's what, uh, that's, uh, [00:54:00] that's an intangible piece of, of, um, really what, what our services kind of offer that you can't, it's hard to put that on a. You can't put that on a fee schedule. You know, it's hard to even put that, that on a, in, in words, on an, on the internet, cause they don't read the same way as they feel.

[00:54:23] And um, but luckily if people get to meet you, right, it's very obvious that there's more to, um, the type of care than, than, you know, like here's some, here's a hot pack.

[00:54:39] Dave: [00:54:39] Yeah. And I figured we get into, like, whenever we talk sleep, there's, there's just, as you can see so many, so many layers that come come off of it of, and it's, uh, you know, that's what I love, what you guys do and why I'm coming to see you to get help is because like, I can't piece all those things together in my head.

[00:54:58] On my own. I can. [00:55:00] I, I tried for awhile. I'd. I, I wouldn't say I failed, but I learned, I learned a lot of what I know what I didn't know, but you're, you're going to eventually run into a wall if you don't have someone, like, I love how you mentioned like your, your team with your, with your patients. It's a, you know, it's very much a collaborative.

[00:55:17] Process of, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna work through this. It's not, you're gonna come see me once. And it's going to all be, uh, you know, I'll be, I'll be cured because there is so many layers that have to peel back. It's like, let's start with, let's start with this. This is what I think is a big part of it.

[00:55:31] And

[00:55:33] Derek: [00:55:33] Yeah. Yeah. It's like the how to eat an elephant. Right? You take, you take one bite at a time. Uh, what I can help is to point to the tastiest part of the elephant to take a jump on a first, right. Or the most relevant one. And, you know, I just, I just did that with, I mean, that was my day yesterday. It seemed like my afternoon was just staffed with there's a lot in front of you right now. Like here's where I'm going to exact my value. And that is [00:56:00] to help you understand how to work through these things, because like, this was an educated person. Like, I, I know these things are going on. I think these things are going, what do I do with all of them? Right. Um, I mean, and that's what I, that's what I do when I come and see you.

[00:56:16] It's like, I don't know, man. It just like. Yeah, it just hurts. And I don't, I don't want it to hurt anymore, but like, and like, I know plenty about the physical body, but what it, what, what you do for me is to say, Hey man, like I know, you know, stuff, I got it. Like, like, let me help you. And like, it's just like, thank you and I, and whether or not I walk out of there.

[00:56:43] You know, in zero out of 10 pain coming in at eight, or whether I walk in there at a seven inspired, both of those are successes for you because that inspiration ha ha ha. You've given me things to also do with that. Right. And [00:57:00] it's, it's frustrating to me how. Right. You are every single time I leave and I go, like, I should just do the things that they told me to do.

[00:57:11] I do, and then they get better. And I go, like, why have I been like, irritated for the last like two weeks? Because I always

[00:57:19] Dave: [00:57:19] Yeah, there's a side story. I'll a very good tangent. Were there anything you wanted to hit on from the other hormones that affects the cause? I know, I think we only got to cortisol.

[00:57:28] Derek: [00:57:28] Yeah, we did. We got the cortisol and then we took this hot air balloon into, into, uh, uh, a good place. But so the other two are melatonin. Okay. Melatonin, most people are aware of this one, mostly because you can get it in a bottle. Um, but it is a hormone that is secreted by the pineal gland in our brain. Okay. And to think of what it does, a lot of people just think, Oh, it makes you go to sleep well. Yes, but that's not really what it does. It [00:58:00] is a signal to your body to, uh, get into a space, to wind down, to sleep. So if you think of when it actually is secreted heavily, it is when it's dark out, it's almost a hormone to, to trigger, uh, or to, to tell your body that it is dark out.

[00:58:19] And in fact it is, um, It is influenced by light and dark in our environment. All right. And so when we get a nice, robust secretion of melatonin, when you know, our, our environment is darker, our brain is now marinating in this kind of message of ah, time to wind down. Time to initiate sleep. It's so happened that melatonin is also a really powerful antioxidant.

[00:58:47] Um, has some anti-inflammatory capacities has some anti viral capacities has some anti cancer property. Like it, it's an incredibly valuable hormone for us, you know, a host of different [00:59:00] mechanisms. And that's not to say. One should just guzzle 40 milligrams of it down at night because that actually can get you into another problem.

[00:59:08] So I'm not recommending that. What we are saying is the value that it kind of carries in our body. And from a behavioral standpoint, if you extrapolate this idea that, um, this is a hormone that is responsive to, to light and to dark, well, what are a lot of us doing? As we are falling asleep or right before we're going to bed.

[00:59:35] We're on. Yeah, we're right. We're on, we're on the phone or on the computer. We're in front of the TV. We're lights on blasting. I mean, we, this, this is the piece where, um, from an evolutionary standpoint, like, Human beings. Now we're in a very different reality than they were thousands of years ago, where we have artificial [01:00:00] light.

[01:00:00] Anytime we want. Not only do we have artificial light whenever we want now are. Cities are literally littered with light pollution, 24 hours a day. And now we carry it like four inches or six inches in front of our face, um, with a very aggressive blue wavelength of light, which seems to be what seems to impact, uh, or has the potential to impact, um, our.

[01:00:26] Overall production of melatonin. And of course all the stuff that tends to come up on these things is also very stimulating, right? So there's that aspect of it as well. Um, so melatonin is an important one to take into consideration because it can be influenced behaviorally and it can be influenced supplementally.

[01:00:48] Um, melatonin. Secretion is also one that can be very thrown off with time change. So this is a hormone that, um, [01:01:00] is dysfunctional and like in jet lag. And then in fact, you can actually kind of influence to try to minimize jet lag if supplemented with appropriately, but it's like probably a topic for an individual case, more than a, um, broad recommendation.

[01:01:15] Um, but it's got as time in place. Um, so that's a valuable one and a valuable one that goes that, that has some. Baseline foundational, you know, we'll call it a sleep hygiene pieces to it. Um, and, and so that's kind of like, uh, like entry level, like, Hey, like don't do this, you know, or try to cut these things back.

[01:01:40] And our, you know, my kind of rule of thumb is to try to get away from devices an hour before you're trying to go to bed. That means you got to bust out the board game, the paper book, some stretching, some deep breathing, you know, a pen and paper, write your ideas down. [01:02:00] Um, some different have even like an audio book to help, you know, listen to, or wind down, um, are all reasonable strategies.

[01:02:07] Um, but getting away from trying to, you know, scrolling that Instagram feed before you go to bed, don't do any, any. Uh, we're not doing any favors and I'm undoing any favors from a hormonal standpoint as well.

[01:02:18] Dave: [01:02:18] Right. Well, it's a double whammy, like you said to of it's the, you know, we don't, our phones have the blue light, which we know has an effect. I don't know how much of an effect, but definitely an effect, but then there's also how much stress we carry on our phones because of texts and email and with all the things being on there and how, I don't know how many times we unlock our phones a day, I've seen the stats on it.

[01:02:40] It's just. Ridiculous. How many times we touch our phone is like in the thousands for some people. But like whenever we're open it, there's always a, there's always an intention. There's something we're seeking. We're getting, you know, the, our social media feeds are designed to keep us on the app longer.

[01:02:55] There's like, or we see that, that person, that for whatever reason, we don't know, [01:03:00] but we're still following that or accessed a little bit. And it's like, all these things I hear from people it's like, well, just, you know, Solve that by, by creating some boundaries, like set some firm boundaries in place, you can do that during the day when you need to, but not, not right before bed.

[01:03:15] Derek: [01:03:15] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so to, to we'll put melatonin to bed and the last one is a Denison and this is one that a lot of people don't. No anything about, and it's not uncommon that people are like, I've never heard of that before. Uh, and a dentist is really neat because it's one of these, um, bread, basically brain chemicals that builds up in your brain.

[01:03:40] And it is a major driver of like sleep pressure or tiredness, sleepiness. So in the morning, uh, It's low and it builds up throughout the day, the higher the dentist and level on our brain. Right. The more tired we become [01:04:00] and then sleep, flushes it all down the toilet. And we start again at a baseline and low baseline and build it up.

[01:04:09] And so. One, if you're not getting good sleep enough sleep, you get an incomplete flush. I mean, I'll save some graphic toilet references, but like you don't, so you you're actually starting your next day at a higher degree of sleepiness than you maybe would like to because you had got it, incomplete flushing and recycling and elimination of that adenosine in your brain.

[01:04:36] And so you wake up the next morning after a bad sleep and we've all been there and you're like, okay. I am exponentially more tired today because you have exponentially more Denison still in your brain, you can flush it. And so that's a, that's a piece of how, um, poor sleep can then of course compound, right?

[01:04:59] Because [01:05:00] then when you wake up tired, what do we try to do? We try to turn to the things that make us less tired. Right. Stimulants and caffeine being a major one. So this is a cool thing about caffeine. This is a component as to why it makes you feel alert. Is it blocks the Denison in your brain from sitting on its receptor.

[01:05:26] So the way neurochemicals work as they are released, and then there's a kind of sign apps. There's a ups, a space. And then there's the receptor on the kind of end molecule or on the end and neuron. And then it says, I'm going to sit here and then it activates what it's doing. So caffeine will block that.

[01:05:45] So the identity doesn't get to sleep receptor and tell you you're sleeping. So it blocks all these receptors. Then all of a sudden, our kind of perception of RJ. So level is much lower because it's not able to sit on this receptor. We get this. [01:06:00] Oh, I feel great. Like, I, I I'm alert. I'm ready to rock. It's great.

[01:06:05] And you know what? Caffeine is not bad. It is, it exists. It's bad for some people. Uh, and of course our caffeine metabolism or caffeine metabolism, uh, is, is regulated by some genetics, which in fact, you can look at, uh, so you can understand, am I a rapid or a slow Cappy and metabolism metabolizer though, most people can have a couple cups of coffee and tell me the same thing.

[01:06:31] Uh, I personally happened to be a fast metabolizer Robert and thank you. Um, because I'm a fan. Um, but what happens is that caffeine will block those receptors. You'll get that alertness. You'll get that wakefulness. And then, well, guess what, you've metabolized that caffeine. And then all of a sudden, all that Denis and that was already there, cause it hasn't been stopped being made.

[01:06:55] It's all there. And then boom floods, all these [01:07:00] receptors and then you're. Just, and you're like, Oh my gosh, like I'm crashing. I need some coffee. You know, that's the, that's the like, you know, 11 o'clock cup. That's the one o'clock cup though. Two, three o'clock cop, if people like, and that's how that's, how and why blood sugar aside.

[01:07:20] Cause we'll talk about that later, but like that's a major component that drives that caffeine desire. Well, the challenge there is that. Caffeine, like has a, has a half-life of like I'm in the ballpark of, I think it's like seven or eight hours. And what half-life means for any anybody listening, who doesn't know what that means.

[01:07:38] It means that amount of time to eliminate half of the amount of that substance is it's half-life. So if you have a hundred milligrams of caffeine, eight hours later, you have 50 milligrams coursing through your veins. So, and then eventually, like that will be kind of eliminated over time. So you can imagine if you're having another [01:08:00] a hundred mil of 50 milligrams, a hundred milligrams of caffeine at two, you have 50 milligrams still at 10 o'clock at night.

[01:08:07] And that can be a real disruptor for being able to wind down because there's still enough blocking of that sleepiness, that tiredness. And so you cannot feel that. And, uh, and it will keep you awake longer into the night and. It disrupts that kind of normal sleep pattern, right? So this is where caffeine has is, is a it's a double-edged sword.

[01:08:34] Um, the seem to have some like brainwave stimulating properties as well, but, uh, there's some benefits to it. There's an enormous amount of research on caffeine and its impact on our physiology. That is in fact actually positive, um, reducing overall more mortality and disease rates. So it's not. It's not an awful molecule, but in some people, uh, especially when [01:09:00] stress and sleep are, uh, maybe a liver detoxification, you know, are, are, are challenging pieces.

[01:09:07] You have to be discerning of when it might be actually detrimental.

[01:09:14] Dave: [01:09:14] yeah. Summarize from a practical standpoint for those that are like, so caffeine kind of good, but kind of bad. It's all going to be in context of, would you say one, how you metabolize it and two would be. Looking at all those other factors of probably if you have a lot of stress, if you have a lot of those things, would you say probably keep it early in the day, if you're going to have it

[01:09:35] Derek: [01:09:35] Yeah, that's usually how I'll, I'll recommend it as a, try to keep your caffeine consumption before noon, if at all possible. Here's the thing that I challenged for. Almost anyone in, in cocky stop, stop for four weeks. So you feel, I can't login. That's probably a [01:10:00] problem. I don't want to, that's another story, right? I can't, you know, is a, is a, is a, is a bigger issue, right? Um, So I was like, I always like to do that because I've found a lot of people who like, they're there, they're here, they're there, they're smart.

[01:10:20] They're smart folks. And they're like, yeah, I know what it does for me. I know that if I, I got, I keep it regulated and it's great. And I think that it, you know, it helps me stay alert and pay attention and get work done, et cetera. But then I still challenged them to say like, stop and they find, they actually feel.

[01:10:36] Better and more sustainably, better away from it. They might miss it. They may like want it. Um, but. It's they, they actually feel better and more resilient, not drinking it then, and are actually more kind of productive in the grander scheme of things, but they just don't have that like, hi, hi there, you [01:11:00] know, operating at 75% for a longer time than at like 135 for that 45 minutes after, you know, they've just jolted their self with caffeine.

[01:11:09] I also fall into that category, um, where, where. I mean, I've done. I, I experiment with removal of things all the time. And caffeine is definitely one where I have a, I have a complicated relationship with it. And every, every once in a while, um, we need a break from each other and that break is a little tumultuous at the beginning.

[01:11:31] I miss, I miss it. I miss, uh, you know, it's company. Uh, but eventually, you know, life goes on and, and in fact there's a, it's quite beautiful on the other side of it as well. It's just tasty too. So, uh, you know, I'm a human being. You're not sitting on that soapbox. I'm just a, another, another, uh, another person in the trenches of the caffeine battle.

[01:11:52] Um, so that's one thing I always encourage people. It's like, we'll stop and just see what life is like.

[01:11:57] Dave: [01:11:57] yeah.

[01:11:58] Derek: [01:11:58] alcohol is the same one too. It's [01:12:00] like, just stop. Like I can't. Okay.

[01:12:07] Dave: [01:12:07] That says something. Yeah, because there's something else there too. And if it, if veteran needs testimony on the, and I love coffee, I'm a, I roast my own coffee. I love like I love good quality coffee. And I had taken out to, uh, you know, taken out for four weeks, six weeks, whatever it was. And I had the harsh realization.

[01:12:27] You've got to face yourself in the mirror then too, where it's like, I'm more productive. My energy is better. My mood is better. Um, more sustained energy. My is better. It's like, man, this is tough to face. And I'm like, well, you know, maybe it was, maybe it was, yeah. So you try and it back in and then all those things take a negative D like I get the,

[01:12:46] Derek: [01:12:46] and slippery slope too.

[01:12:48] Dave: [01:12:48] Yeah. I get a little more alertness, but then it's like, everything else. I'm like, okay. That's, that's clear to me in an extreme case. And you know, I, I drink decaf 90. 5% of the time now, because I do enjoy the taste [01:13:00] of it, but it's, uh, it's, it's definitely helped helped me, but as someone who I never thought I would stop drinking coffee because I wasn't drinking a lot of it either.

[01:13:07] It was one cup in the morning, but that was still enough to, to affect me. So I think, you know, trying, it is definitely, uh, a real, a great starting point of, and if you can't mentally do that, that's a, that's some of the other things you're talking about. If you, if you feel like you can't do it. Um,

[01:13:21] Derek: [01:13:21] Yeah. Yeah. We'll put that out to the people who are listening, have them ping you and be like, Hey, I want to stop coffee, but I don't want to do it alone. Uh, you know, you might be a good ally, you know? Um, love that ball back over to me. I'll tell you if I'm in a place to do it too.

[01:13:38] Dave: [01:13:38] it's gotta be, it's gotta be the right time. I wanna, I wanna expand on, uh, and just because something you brought up was I actually had a note down for this that I want to talk about and you kind of touched on it, but the, you know, as it relates to these hormones, so we have. The Denison, the melatonin and the cortisol.

[01:13:52] I want to talk about the, you know, the, the acute versus chronic that the compounding effects, because you kind of mentioned on that. And that was a note I wanted to [01:14:00] circle back to because there's, I'm guessing there's a difference between. You know, a week of sleep deprivation versus the, like, what happens when this starts to compound?

[01:14:09] What effect does this have on hormones? Long-term what effect does this have on your, on your sleep long term? Is it, uh, you know, is it a, I'm giving you a couple of routes to go with this? Is it more important to get an average over the court? Like if you. Sleep six hours during the week. And then you just like crash course on the weekends.

[01:14:28] Is that enough? Is that, is that mess you up? Um, I know I'm throwing a lot at you, but giving you some, some options of where to, where to take this one.

[01:14:35] Derek: [01:14:35] Yeah. So the, your, your bot, what I have found and what it seems to pan out in the literature is that your body always kind of tries to make up. Or some lost sleep. And in fact it will do that. Not only in the macro of hours slept, um, but even type of sleep you are getting. And we didn't even talk about things [01:15:00] like sleep cycles and, and maybe we, and maybe we don't necessarily need to go into that, um, in depth, but there's. Um, the way sleep tends to be kind of pattern from a sleep cycle standpoint. And when we're talking about sleep cycles, it, they relate to certain brainwave patterns in our brain. So they are measured via, um, electroencephalogram or EEG during a sleep study. Um, You can see different brainwave patterns and brainwaves are basically electrical, conductivity of energy, electricity in your brain at different hurts.

[01:15:42] Right? So, um, And, uh, I'll, I'll save diving into all of that stuff, but, um, this is kind of how we determined stages of sleep is it's based on electrical conductivity in the brain. There does seem to be some [01:16:00] physiological downstream effects that you can pick up on. And that's where some of the sleep trackers.

[01:16:06] Are designed to do that, uh, and give you an estimate of your deep sleep and your REM sleep and your light sleep around being rapid eye movement. Um, so on the deprivation front, um, your, your body tends to be quite intelligent at trying to pick up. What it needs the most. And in fact, if, uh, when, when you look at an overall night of sleep, uh, let's call it a good night of sleep.

[01:16:37] Um, you spend more time in the beginning hours in deeper sleep. You spend more time in the later part of your sleep, uh, uh, eight hours of sleep, we'll call it in rapid eye movement or REM sleep. If you, you kind of stay up too late and you truncate that deep sleep later down the road, when you have an opportunity to make [01:17:00] up you'll you can actually find that.

[01:17:02] You spend far more time in deep sleep than you did in REM sleep, even though the sleep was kind of normal because your body's trying to make up for a piece that it lost earlier. And on the flip side of that same thing, if you end up like, Oh, I got to wake up early and hit the road or whatever it may be, you were up at three 30, four o'clock and you normally sleep until it.

[01:17:20] Seven 30 or eight. So you've truncated your mornings really cut that rev sleep by a lot. You'll find, you'll make that up later where you could like monitor your she'd be like, I barely got any deep sleep this night, but my room was huge and it was cause it's making up for it. I think the body keeps score.

[01:17:37] There's a beautiful book about trauma. Uh, and PTSD is as a body keeps score. It's about Bessel, Vander, cock, and it's just a great title, but like, this is a great example of it does, right. I mean, it's tracking all this stuff, like you're not smarter than it. Um, so on, on the acute, in the chronic. So it kind of [01:18:00] depends on severity, right?

[01:18:01] Severe. And by like that mean like no sleeping, like not sleeping, you will significantly be compensate within days. But, and in fact, it's, it's, it's very, uh, like when people have truly have not slept for, I mean, I, I can't remember the exact kind of timeframe, but like we're talking like medical emergency type situation within days because you decompensate so dramatically from that, most of us are not in those scenarios.

[01:18:37] Most people that we see are in the, I sleep five and a half hours, six hours a night for 20 years. That's chronic sleep deprivation. That's where you get the insight. That's where like at 40 and like 45. They're just like, I can't get it up. I'm [01:19:00] tired. Like I'm fat. Uh, my cholesterol stria high blood pressure.

[01:19:04] I'm this, I'm that? And I'm like, how did I get here? I don't eat that bad. You know, I get to the gym a couple of times or whatever, but like the, the problem is, is because they've built up a chronic, chronic sleep deprivation. And the fact is, is that it's just insidiously built up. Over the years. And when you just move the needle a little bit every week, a little bit, every month, a little bit a year, they're harder changes to note.

[01:19:35] And then all of a sudden, like a kid's these thresholds where it's like, something is wrong, something is wrong. Um, and of course you can't just in an instant. Make up that 20 years of sleep loss, but you can change it, right. You can, you can say I'm going to make a concerted effort to be different, to be better on that front.

[01:19:58] So I'm not sure if that answers your [01:20:00] question.

[01:20:00] Dave: [01:20:00] I think so. Essentially. It's. In the acute stay in the acute sleep deprivation. It's a little easy to, I guess, for lack of a better term catch up on sleep and the chronic cases there's changes you can make to improve your sleep, but it's going to be hard to maybe catch up on the years of, of poor sleep and hormonal

[01:20:20] Derek: [01:20:20] because it's created, it's created usually a metabolic and a hormonal monster at that point. Right. And I say that like all that I call, like, because they do a lot of blood sugars to call it a metabolic monster. And it's because the previous, the way in which you were living. Has created a cycle and a sensitivity and an, a functionality in your body that's broken, but it's, but you made it and now you have to remake it.

[01:20:50] Right. And that doesn't just happen. Like, Oh, well I started eating well, or I started exercising. . Well, okay. That's a [01:21:00] start. You have to do that. You got to start somewhere, but there's a monster now or trying to battle. And what I have found on a sleep standpoint is that this needs to be broken in a lot of different way, like in a lot of different parts of the chain, right?

[01:21:17] So this is where sleep hygiene. Uh, dark room, cool room, um, you know, uh, devices off, um, you know, don't drink too much water before you go to bed. So you don't wake up to pee, right? Like th th that kind of baseline stuff is like, non-negotiable okay. Then there's the next layer of, okay. Well, how do we. Maybe supplement to break it.

[01:21:50] Some of these levels and help reduce cortisol, help stimulate melatonin, uh, you know, help turn down nervous system activation, [01:22:00] uh, increased Gabba, increased calm in the brain, especially if sleep initiation is a problem. How do we, and this is where performance. And then what you do comes into play. How do we live our day to be successful for our night, which is being active.

[01:22:18] How do we limit substances that are going to interfere with that, that you actually have to break it on so many levels because it's ingrained over decades and a little thing here or all little thing. There is usually not sufficient where, where, you know, we try to provide value is a framework for all of that.

[01:22:39] Um, understanding that that's a lot to bite off and how to work into that because you also just can't go from going to bed at midnight to go into bed at night. You'll just be like, this is a waste of my time. I'm not tired. So like, how do you structure something to support that person? Right. Um, and then how do you, you know, make, get them active during the [01:23:00] day, get them literally physically tired.

[01:23:03] So they, they have no choice, but to go to sleep. Right. And so, you know, minimizing alcohol, you know, and of course, you know, alcohol, we could talk all day about this, but most of the time, this is a self-medication. It's not just like, Oh, I just want alcohol. It's like, I need a drink. Why don't you drink? I just need one because like, it makes this thing turn down. Okay. Well, that's a big conversational, what's why so turned up. Can we do something about that differently? Can we make it harder to turn that up? Can we turn it down a different way? Um, how do we, you know, understand our stress management and the ending of that will be the next talk. Right. But, um, so that we don't become so reliant on a substance, um, whether that's alcohol self-medicating with that, or whether it's pharmaceutical medications to wind down.

[01:23:58] Xanax and [01:24:00] Ambiens and benzos, like they all they're out there right now. Trazadone um, and if we need something, is there like a harm reduction, you know, piece of, uh, best practice, if we do need something, um, something with maybe more side benefits than side effects. So, um, those are some things to, you know, take into consideration there.

[01:24:24] Yeah.

[01:24:24] Dave: [01:24:24] Yeah, no, that's good. And I'll tell you what I want to do here, Derek with, uh, you know, and as people can start to see of why our conversations go on, go on so long. I still have a list of a bunch of bunch of questions I have coming up that I think other people might be interested in. And, uh, I want to get your permission on this, but if we do kind of like a, a quick hitter, practical thing of maybe an like, I, I fire off some questions and answers within maybe aim for like 90 seconds or so at the, at the most.

[01:24:51] And.

[01:24:52] Derek: [01:24:52] For 30

[01:24:52] Dave: [01:24:52] Aim for 30 and we'll hit 90. And the, I guess, claim I would put out for you for this. I'm sure. Like, as you guys can [01:25:00] see, there's so much that goes into this, that these are going to be kind of like blanket general recommendations, everything. There's so many systems at play here. There's so many different factors at play that, uh, none of these are going to be straightforward answers, but they're just common questions that I know.

[01:25:16] No, uh, no will

[01:25:17] Derek: [01:25:17] And you know, like the whole dot medical advice seek the advice of your, you know, of your, of your position before, you know, doing anything on these fronts. But I am happy to, I'm happy to, um, shoot a couple answers at you. So what you got.

[01:25:30] Dave: [01:25:30] Uh, what do, what effect do you naps have on sleep? Is that, uh, uh, is that something that you have

[01:25:36] Derek: [01:25:36] 90 seconds, Dave, 90 seconds.

[01:25:39] Dave: [01:25:39] go for it?

[01:25:40] Derek: [01:25:40] Um, I'm not against naps. Uh, if they are truly needed, I try to keep them short under. 30 minutes, ideally, and not too late in the afternoon or evening, or they're going to disrupt night's sleep. Um, they seem to have some benefit in the literature as a [01:26:00] component of the totality of sleep in a day, but they can be detrimental for some people's, uh, overall sleep.

[01:26:07] If they're done, um, out. Kind of we'll say incorrectly or at a dysfunctional time. However, I'll put this caveat as functional medicine. If you're finding yourself tired enough in the middle of the day that you need a nap, um, that's something that I would be working up differently. Um, iron deficiency, anemia, chronic infections, folks who have Epstein-Barr virus, thyroid dysfunction.

[01:26:33] Um, I don't just go like this. That's fine. Um, uh, that raises a couple of flags for me.

[01:26:38] Dave: [01:26:38] Gotcha. What about a circadian rhythm of our people? You know, the night owls versus the early birds, should people fight that? Should they play into that of, uh, you know, of the different rhythms we have.

[01:26:50] Derek: [01:26:50] Yeah. Um, I try and I try not to force a round peg into a square hole, um, within reason, right? [01:27:00] The night owls. Seem to think that they can kind of get the best of both worlds in the way of, Oh, I can stay up till two, but still wake up at eight or seven. He was like, no, you can't. So it has to come somewhere.

[01:27:15] Right. And, you know, I find more commonly the early people who get up you're one of them, um, tend to go to bed early, but it's like the night folks. Try to get their cake and eat it too. And there tend to be the ones that, uh, I mean, I am one of them. I'm not a morning person. I'm I don't like to be awake earlier than seven 30 in the morning.

[01:27:38] I just don't care for it. I never have. Uh, and I don't know if I ever will. I'm sure circumstances in my life will force out upon me at times and we'll have to compensate because of that. But, um, But my life has become much more harmonious, not trying to be something I am not from a just chronological, you know, uh, [01:28:00] standpoint.

[01:28:00] So I try to understand that, especially the way to ebbs and flows in people's lives. Um, but it still doesn't make them super human. Okay.

[01:28:10] Dave: [01:28:10] What about, uh, so wearables, uh, uh, what, what your thoughts are on them and which ones you tend to recommend if you do recommend them?

[01:28:18] Derek: [01:28:18] My favorite is the ordering. Um, and I think it's my favorite because I don't like, I don't like wearing things. I don't wear a watch. Um, I've I, I, this is, uh, this has been a struggle, but the dad, I love so it's so it's worth it. So, uh, the, I think the word sticky, it's a very sticky tool for me. Um, it's easy.

[01:28:40] I, I barely notice it. Uh, it's. Pretty resilient. I mean, I've done all sorts of yard work in it and, and, and activities in it. Um, I love the data that it can provide in the field. I've looked at a lot of these different, um, a lot of these different devices. It, it [01:29:00] is, it is in the top of, um, of kind of quality of data that you can get from it.

[01:29:06] And, um, and for me, it's. It is the important component of that is, is that I wear it and I use it because if you don't use it, it's not going to work. Um, whoops, good. Um, iPhone watch people like, uh, I can get a lot of value out of some of the sleep stuff there. Um, so from a wearable standpoint, though, those tend to be the three that I see the most commonly Fitbit too.

[01:29:33] Um, and. They all give you similar metrics? Uh, I think aura, as you know, got a couple of pieces that, that some of the other ones don't particularly like body temperature and they've had a unique, interesting piece of, of having a broad study with trying to actually predict COVID infections with raise in body temperature.

[01:29:53] So I think it's, that's an interesting metric on it as well. Um, you know, that that's [01:30:00] a, or it is, um, Probably my favorite over the, over the, uh, past few years, once they got there, um, uh, when they're kind of new version of their ring came out, it's been something I've recommended, but we do, you know, we do have an affiliate component to that where we've been able to give our patients a pretty good discount on orderings because of it.

[01:30:21] I just find it valuable information. Um, but for me, it's the stickiness that I can wear it doesn't intrude in my life. Um, and I'm not a watch where cause uh, I don't want to sleep with that.

[01:30:32] Dave: [01:30:32] Yeah, that's good. Speaking of body temperature. What about, uh, uh, cold plunge, heat therapy, things like that to aid in sleep.

[01:30:39]Derek: [01:30:39] Sure. So what we know about an aspect of sleep initiation is there is a drop in body temperature and that drop a body temperature is another one of these signals to the brain, to the body, to that, that we are about to initiate sleep or that's time to initiate sleep. Um, you know, just like a Denison is a buildup of [01:31:00] sleepiness and drop in body.

[01:31:01] Temperature is one that, um, that triggers that message to our body. So I think. Kind of a lot of forms of hydrotherapy can be useful here. The caveat to that is they can also be, um, potentially harmful, have over done or done a little bit, uh, incorrectly. So, you know, talk, well, we'll talk about one that like is accessible to everybody, which is usually a hot, a hot bath or a shower.

[01:31:29] Right. Um, And so that actually can be very useful to initiate and to get people to calm their brains, to calm down their body's ready for sleep, because you can actually get the body hot in a nice warm shower, a nice warm bathtub. And then what happens when you get out is your body kind of triggers it, it triggers the coolest self-doubt.

[01:31:50] And so that relative drop in body temperature is actually that signal for sleepiness. Um, there, the crux there is you don't want to [01:32:00] necessarily go into bed underneath the blankets, you know, bundled up. Rip roar and hot cause you'll actually, you can, you get us get warmer and that can actually make it challenging to, to actually fall asleep, but having a hot bath before you go to bed, you know, drying off completely, you know, giving yourself, you know, 20, 30 minutes and then going into bed.

[01:32:22] Um, that relative drop is actually nice from a kind of sleepiness standpoint. Um, saunas will work in the similar way, uh, in the way in which. Uh, B having a kind of elevated internal body temperature. You're going to want to probably give yourself a little bit more time to cool off, uh, after a sauna, particularly an infrared sauna as well, just to, uh, begin to dissipate that heat before you go into your bed underneath the blankets.

[01:32:50] Um, Cause being too hot. I think we've all know this is a real big problem in, uh, in getting to sleep and then staying asleep. Okay. So the, [01:33:00] the, those ones, you gotta be a little bit, um, just cognizant of the timeframe, but the mechanism of being warmer and then having that relative cooldown, uh, can be useful.

[01:33:10] I've also found having a cool, uh, shower, or if you have access to, and I know you do, whether it's through a friend or a colleague, uh, and I do as well, a cold plunge can also be helpful. Uh, again, double edge sword here where if you truly do go into a cold plunge, it's either too cold or for too long. Um, You can really shift your, um, your body into a little bit more of a kind of fight or flight sympathetic dominant, uh, almost like survival mode, uh, where it triggers your nervous system too much.

[01:33:50] And you can, you can get too cold and then you'll be up trying to warm up. Um, While you're trying to actually, um, go to sleep. I've done it [01:34:00] multiple times by accident. You know, you're just trying to say, I want to push it a little bit farther, a little bit farther. And then all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, laying in bed, just literally like shaking, trying to warm up.

[01:34:12] That's not what we're going for here. Right. But if done, right. Um, especially if. Uh, and I, and I find I fall in this category and I was like hot at night. I'm really warm. I'm hopping into my cold plunge, which I personally keep around 50 degrees. Um, sometimes a little bit cooler, um, depending on the season, but for winter time, 15 is nice.

[01:34:37] Uh, and staying in there depending on how practiced I am. Um, Long enough, but not too long is a, is a really nice way to kind of initiate for me. Just kind of calming down of that brain, like getting the monkey brain turned off, um, just getting back into the body and in a nice opportunity to go into bed.

[01:34:58] Nice and cool. [01:35:00] Um, and that also drops your body temperature, right? So, uh, less reflectively and more. Uh, intent, uh, more, um, purposefully. Sure. So, um, again, they're, I think they're valued all of them. I think there's a double-edged sword to, to, um, to all of them as well, if you use kind of either too intensely or the wrong time.

[01:35:23] So my understanding of that, that follow up to that, uh, don't overdo it and experiment maybe cold works better for you, maybe how it works better for you. Yeah. I mean, I can't say that I have found that. One more reliable than the other, um, outside of access, right? Not, everybody's got a sauna now.

[01:35:42] Everybody's got a cold plunge that they made at home. Um, but a shower or a bathtub, um, can always be a pretty good go-to it almost. And quite honestly, I be like, Warm it's a little bit more comfortable and accessible than cool. So it's [01:36:00] a, it's an easier thing to do. And it has some, it has some positive effects.

[01:36:05] Um, colder is more direct and I feel also has some other, um, kind of getting you out of your head effects, um, then than hot does from it's just, um, Uh, kind of what it does to your nervous system. Um, so there can be some side benefits outside of how, how it engages with you just from a temperature standpoint, cold earlier.

[01:36:30] If it's done early in the day, can that impact your sleep at all? Or is that, is it have to be right before bed? Uh, you know, I can't necessarily comment on that as it pertains to, if I've. Personally noticed or my, any of my patients who were doing this routinely, notice it like, Oh, if I do this routinely in the morning, I'm sleeping more reliably one way or the other.

[01:36:52] So, um, that, uh, I'd have to hard pass. Okay. Uh, ideal sleeping environment in terms of considerations for [01:37:00] the room itself, a little personalized, but the data would suggest we sleep better. Slightly cooler. I think that like cool dark cave type idea. Um, you know, I know my partner does not love going into a cold bed.

[01:37:18] Uh, I, on the other hand, absolutely love it. Right. And so we have a, we have an Uhler, uh, which is like, uh, a temperature controlled mattress pad, um, and, uh, one that we can actually program to be at different temperatures at different times. Um, and so. For me, it's cranked as low as it possibly can go all the time.

[01:37:39] And I just want to get into that nice, cool bed. And, you know, for other people who like to have again to almost take advantage of that temperature change, you can kind of set it in to be a little warm, nice and warm to get into, especially in the winter time. And then you can, uh, Turn the temperature of that mat [01:38:00] down to take advantage of one sleeping more cool in the middle of the night, but also having that drop, um, of, uh, you know, body temperature.

[01:38:09] Dave: [01:38:09] Mm. I like that. Yeah. Uh, and then, so like dark darkness, too general. So cool. Dark are the main consider. What about eye mask versus like blackout curtains?

[01:38:20]Derek: [01:38:20] I think that kind of is a personal preference there, whatever, however you feel most comfortable it with it getting dark. Some people don't like something over their eyes.

[01:38:30] It doesn't seem to phase me too much. Um, And we already sleep in a pretty dark room. Uh, but the eye mask I find is nice because inevitably it kind of slips up in the evening time at times, but then like, you know, if you wake up with that first time is morning. You're like, ah, well, pull it down. Like, I'm going to get a couple more.

[01:38:49] Uh, I got a few more minutes here. So, um, I can't say I've found one to be more, more powerful than the other, but that's only personal, um, um, personal [01:39:00] preference. Okay. Noise earplugs sound machine. Some of that might depend on your partner. If you're sleeping with somebody, uh, or your environment that you are sleeping in.

[01:39:11] Um, while I don't have a purposeful noise machine, we have a noise machine in the, in our bedroom, which is an IQ air air filter. So it has a very low kind of. Hum to it. Um, or moving movement of air they'll fan. So there is a degree of similar kind of white static noise in there. Um, I don't have the, I don't have the data on, uh, whether or not that objectively changes or shifts people's sleep reliably.

[01:39:42] I think it's situationally valuable. And if you are easily. Awoken, you know, if you are asleep next to a partner who makes a lot of noise, um, and that some white noise can be [01:40:00] valuable at drowning. Some of that out, I think there's a place for that. Um, you know, we could dive down the rabbit hole of, is it great to be sleeping with Bluetooth, something or others in your here, if that's the case, um, We'll see, we'll shelf that for another day.

[01:40:20] Um, cause I still don't know the answer to it, but uh, yeah, that's my thoughts on that. Okay. Uh, any general supplements you that tend to be good for people? I know again, very individualized, but like any natural supplements that people can consider. I mean, there's so many tools in this toolbox and there they are.

[01:40:39] They're pretty specific to what we are trying to do for that particular person. But, um, But there's definitely a place to speak about that. So, um, if we are looking at cortisol elevations, phosphatidyl searing can be very useful. Um, supplemented helps reduce cortisol levels and it works pretty [01:41:00] well. Um, dosing matters a lot, you know, within that, um, 300, 600 milligram doses are where I tend to find, um, the most degree of effect.

[01:41:14] Um, and I worked for some people and then those people, they probably have a degree of cortisol elevation in the evening time. That's disrupting it. And for the people that doesn't work, but that's probably not their issue. In fact that usually is how it pans out. If I've clinically suggested it, they do it, we test them and they come back and they're like, eh, it didn't really do very much.

[01:41:34] And then we look at their hormone tests and you're like, yeah, that makes sense. It probably won't because you don't have a problem, um, that one's valuable. Um, Magnolia bark, um, is another one. And it's found in a lot of different like sleep combo supplementation as well. Um, Has some effect on Gabba. Gabba is a calming neurotransmitter in the brain.

[01:41:58] Generally speaking. [01:42:00] Um, one of my go tos more recently has been Tori and taurine is an amino acid and taurine also can have precursor to GABA, but has a host of other side awesomeness to it on, um, liver gallbladder health that just have health, um, on. Um, lipids of cholesterol, blood sugar. So there's a lot of like side benefits that can come with that.

[01:42:26] And it's very, pretty safe as well. That's one we'll come in and use, you know, we talked about melatonin and the use of it, and they get to be pretty discerning with this because, um, it's easy to get into a habit of using it. Um, almost any supplemental dose is gobs more than our physiological production.

[01:42:46] And so you gotta be cognizant of that. Um, And there is some literature out there to suggest that like really high doses of it can influence your own natural production. And so like, you want to be [01:43:00] discerning when you're choosing to use any of these nutritional supplements. Um, and then from a, uh, kind of nervous system calming, there's a host of herbs that are very kind of calming for the nervous system.

[01:43:12] And we'll turn to those. In particular, depending on what we are trying to accomplish, um, lemon balm is calming. You can get that in a tea, right. Um, kava is a more heavy hitter or, um, Valerian is in an, again, a calm, calm and kind of sleep combination. Urban valerian tastes gross, but it works. Uh, so does COVID it tastes fantastic, but, but, but they're both very kind of calming to the nervous system to have some effects on the, on the muscle and muscle relaxation.

[01:43:46] Neither of them really should be just kind of used Willy nilly they're there. They should be. It should be kind of put into a plan as to what are we trying to accomplish. And that's where sometimes objective testing can be useful. Uh, and [01:44:00] that having a structured while therapeutic plan, I was like, well, we're what we're trying to accomplish.

[01:44:05] Is this, we're going to put these things in here. Did they accomplish the goal? And if they did wonderful, then now what? And if they didn't we'll hop com. And now what? Yeah, that's good. Uh, so I think it sounds like alcohol across the board, not good for sleep. What about something like marijuana that's complicated.

[01:44:26] Um, and from, from what I know about some of the literature out there, um, pros and cons, um, and, and the, the realm of what it can do. Or, or how it affects her. So it has to go back to doing what those sleep cycles and the seep signatures of the electromagnetic energy in the brain and what they're doing for that.

[01:44:52] So anytime we're looking at any sort of sleep agent, we want to know like, Does it, does it like knock you [01:45:00] unconscious or does it promote sleep? And those are two different things, you know, sleep. Isn't the absence of consciousness. I think Matthew Walker says. And so some of these, you know, sleep medicines do truly that like you are not conscious, but the way your brain is kind of acting is not, is not in an ideal sleep signature.

[01:45:21] And so I've. Read some preliminary research that seems to be that THC can influence, um, sleep signatures negatively, uh, that CBD does not seem to have the same impact on, um, but that's a small kind of sample size of, uh, of what I know on the literature. And it's, uh, a little bit of a, um, A blind spot in a sleep therapeutic for me in particular, um, for a host of reasons, one simply being federally legal agent, right.

[01:46:00] [01:45:59] Um, despite being legalized in, uh, in California for recreational use, um, one of the challenges with any of these substances that have been federally illegal, you said you're just not studying it doesn't mean that they're not. Useful. It's just that we just don't fully understand how to utilize this tool.

[01:46:22] And then of course, in the way in which the substance is now like provided there, it's like, Here you go. Here's, here's weed in a whole bunch of different kinds of forms and dosages and strains and, and, and, and, and, uh, ratios. And we have no objective understanding from, uh, from, uh, uh, we have minimal objective understanding from a kind of research standpoint of like, When would one turn to this versus this.

[01:46:52] And in fact, some of the people who literally just have boots on the ground experience of using marijuana or [01:47:00] gain some respects have been, are, are the most valuable folks because they've been in it since 1960 something. Right. And, um, And that's a, that's a challenging place to be, um, giving medical advice.

[01:47:18] We like to have, we'd like to be able to sit back on some kind of pharmacodynamics of what we're trying to do here, even in herbal medicine. Um, and, uh, and we're gaining that. So it's going to be an interesting tool in the toolbox moving forward, um, amongst a few other things that are, Hmm, that's good.

[01:47:43] Dave: [01:47:43] Last one. I that's, when I had a good one, I think to wrap it up on would be general, you know, we mentioned a couple of these already, but general routine recommendations for a, you know, a nighttime routine things that people can consider to help with that wind down process. [01:48:00] Yeah. Some exercise, you know, I think that, and whether or not that happens, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily suggest it too late in the evening.

[01:48:10] Derek: [01:48:10] Uh, I know that, I mean, when I play hockey late at night, uh, and which is when they put the really bad hockey players, which is me, uh, Our games start at like 10, which like is okay for me as this night out was after it's still not. Okay. It's not, it's not good. Uh, it's tolerable once in awhile, but like, I can't sleep until one 30 easily just to fire it up, um, from the kind of high intensity of, uh, recreational hockey camp.

[01:48:44] Uh, so. So that's, uh, that's one suggestion is to make sure exercise happens, but not too late at night and not too intensely if it's happening later in the evening time, get it in in the day. Um, I [01:49:00] think one of the most valuable pieces of being able to get sleep is to tire your body out. So it wants to go to bed.

[01:49:08] So many of us sit in front of computers on our butts in offices for an inhumane amount of time. Spending very little physical energy and all of that, just gears turning in the brain. Right. So I think that's an important piece. Get that exercise in, um, keep caffeine, you know, we talked about this kind of before noon, if you can.

[01:49:36] Okay. Um, uh, I would say try not to eat too close to your bedtime. So try to give yourself to. Three hours between like finishing your dinner and going to bed. That might mean moving your dinner earlier. Ideally not moving your bedtime later. Right? Um, I think that that's about a very [01:50:00] valuable piece, um, for a host of reasons.

[01:50:03] Uh, cause gut health is another conversation. I know. And I'll pause that one. So, um, the, the other things to consider are again, uh, tech removals, right? So you know, our 90 minutes before you go into bed, get away from the screens. Right. And for you, that, that usually means you got to cut your screen up at like what four o'clock.

[01:50:22] Cause you're going to bed at six. And if for the listeners. I always give Dave a hard time, uh, because by the time I'm up for the day, he's already had half of his day. And by the time I'm sitting down to have dinner, uh, he's pretty much put his PJ's on and go to bed. So, yeah. Well, that's why, if you texts me though at like seven o'clock, you don't get a response till the next morning.

[01:50:45] It's because of the priority priority phone away. I actually look at it until probably 10 or 11. Um, yeah, so it's a really tough communication conflict for us. Um, so getting the tech and the bright lights [01:51:00] down. Right. So, uh, and that, again, I try to put a 90 minute window that's ideal, um, to, to get away from some of those things, your, if you're going to have your hot shower, it's kind of a good timeframe to be doing that in, you know, within the hour before you're trying to go to bed.

[01:51:19] Um, and that's not something that I'm pulling from. Anything other than, um, some patient experience and personal experience, it's not pulling from a research paper. Okay. Um, those would be the main ones and then setting up your room for success, which is a dark. Cool. Uh, get your TV. If you have a TV in your bedroom out.

[01:51:44] No, like don't watch TV in your bedroom. Don't do work at your bedroom. Sleep. And sex. I mean, you, you can have sex at other places too. That's fine. Um, but those are the two things that you're really [01:52:00] limited to what you do in the bedroom, right. Maybe debt changed from day. Um, but don't associate that space with anything, but.

[01:52:11] Really those two, those two things, um, you'll want it associated with work. You don't want it associated with being awake. You don't want it associated with, with eating or having a movie. Like, just try to do, try to separate that and make it a little bit of a sanctuary that is, um, that is yours and designed for a purpose.

[01:52:34] Um, so I'm not a big like TV in the bedroom fan. It's too tempting. And, um, to just sit and let's watch it. Let's watch one more. Let's watch one more. Let's watch one more. Um, no, perhaps some time. I mean, whether you're, whether you're single or partnered up, you know, it's like you use it, you use the bedroom for what it is.

[01:52:55] You have a kitchen table for a reason. You get it. And you know, you [01:53:00] got a family room for a reason. If you do watch your stuff at that, have put a desk up, do your work there, compartmentalize that piece so that when you can operate in the other places, they don't have all these triggers. Right. And mean you can go and we can talk about psychological triggers is a whole nother kind of conversation piece, but trying to set yourself up for it.

[01:53:22] Yeah. And it sounds like the city. Now, uh, I think those are, yeah, those are the big things. I think that's probably a crucial one go outside. This is, I think, even more relevant now with all this like work from home. Some people are literally missing. They're like for they're they're 40 seconds from the walk, from the parking lot into their, you know, into their building.

[01:53:44] And then the, you know, maybe 20 minute walk, they take around lunch, making a phone call or whatever, because now we're just like in. In the house sitting in, you know, in our, in our space, not necessarily going outside, um, go outside. You need sunlight. [01:54:00] You need bright light in fact, and it's probably pretty valuable to have your one cup of coffee outside so you can get a little bit of that morning sunshine.

[01:54:10] We're lucky to have it in California. Let's take advantage of it. Yeah. I think the only other thing that you had you had mentioned earlier would be things like, you know, journaling, uh, reading something, not too stimulating confined to that. Meditation would be a few other things to get the, get the mind off the, all the, to do's of the day would probably be the only other thing to highlight.

[01:54:29] Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, from a, like a meditation practice, I'm not particularly dogmatic about when. Because if it's happening, if it's happening routinely, the concepts permeate the day. Right? And so if you're getting your meditation in the morning, you shouldn't have stage for how your day is going to unfold.

[01:54:52] Um, the realization of, of what you're trying to accomplish and the focus of that, like is not lost [01:55:00] throughout the day. Right. And so it ends up being a piece of the puzzle that, that. That will, that you'll kind of, uh, have lasting benefits. However, if you find that this is a great time for you to. Take that, uh, excitation of the day and to kind of bring it down grounded and centered, nighttime is a very useful time.

[01:55:22] It might be the time in which you have the most free time to do that. You know, if you have kids, kids are asleep and you can spend a little bit of, you know, mom or dad, time to themselves.

[01:55:32] Dave: [01:55:32] Yeah. That's good, man. Derek, this has been amazing. One of the. One of my, one of my favorite podcasts we've recorded.

[01:55:40] There's just so much value in this. And I know we left, we left so much out and I don't know how many times you mentioned we can go on a separate side conversation. I have a whole other topic on this between gut health and hormones and all the other blood sugar out of the other things we talked about.

[01:55:54] But I, uh, I really appreciate the, the knowledge and the time, you know, [01:56:00] how much I respect what you do. Uh, where can. Where can we find you? Where can people either local to Southern California? I don't know if you're doing any remote virtual stuff, any, any places people can, uh, get in contact with, with you and your biz?

[01:56:15] I would love to love to hear that.

[01:56:17] Derek: [01:56:17] Yeah. So, you know, we are, uh, are practices based in Carlsbad, Carlsbad, California, there, um, and. And so we have a revived naturopathic medicine. So our, you know, our social tags are at revive, not bad Nat med, and you can find us there. You can find us at doc Derrick as well as kind of my personal, um, uh, my personal social tag.

[01:56:39] Uh, we've got a lot of wonderful information on our website, uh, particularly designed to help people find, um, the right doc for that. At our clinic, we will do something and it'll kind of take our angles a little bit differently. So we want, we really want to find those, those right fits. So we've structured our, some of [01:57:00] our information and content to drive that I am also the, the natural medical director at Vera via, which is an all inclusive fitness and wellness retreat.

[01:57:09] Uh, that's based out of the park Hyatt here in RVR, uh, luxury, all inclusive kind of wellness. Vacation, uh, where we have any worse from three-day stays upwards of three months. In fact, um, where people come and they'd live it day in, day out with some help. You know, we have personal trainers, nutritionists, psychologists, naturopathic doctors, running the show, and a lot had a big team of support there.

[01:57:34] So, you know, those are the places in which you can find me we're on Instagram or on Facebook at revive, not med and, uh, what we're also hoping to do. Is, uh, you know, um, continue a couple more of these conversations. Cause like you said, uh, when, when you're talking about health, it's impossible to begin to separate these topics.

[01:57:59] And [01:58:00] this is the blessing and the curse of being able to like hit on these things is they leave a lot of, uh, unended thoughts because the totality of this w it would never end. Right. So, uh, if the, if your listeners out there, you know, are left with any, uh, any incomplete, uh, incomplete answers, right. Make sure they ping you.

[01:58:23] Right. And it's something that we can circle back and make sure we get answered to. But yeah. Thank you for taking the time and having me on and, um, I'm really, uh, you know, I'm, I'm looking forward to hearing this conversation again and going like, Oh my gosh, how come we didn't talk about this? Right. So I think what will come of, this is our little checklist of what else we got to do.

[01:58:44] Yeah. We'll be back for sure. But, uh, yeah, last, last plug on that I've been working with Derek personally, I've, uh, you know, through our physical therapy business that we have here in Carlsbad, we've worked together on many. Mutual patients. And, uh, the results I've seen personally with, with [01:59:00] those patients have been amazing with, uh, Derek and their team there.

[01:59:03] Dave: [01:59:03] So if you have access to him, couldn't recommend it more. But, uh, I think just generally speaking, finding someone like that in your area can be extremely valuable and don't wait for, don't wait for the. No symptoms to get to a point where you're crashing and you're responding to reacting to, to a health crisis.

[01:59:24] If you will, uh, take, take the action proactively, uh, just get some, get some more knowledge of, of some information with, with blood work, with, uh, you know, some of those have those conversations that, uh, can help, help save you a lot of time, money, frustration down the road. That's just the, the last plug on that.

[01:59:41] Derek: [01:59:41] Yeah. And, you know, for some of the people who are, who are out of state, we, we do have the capacity to, to kind of help facilitate, um, some of their care from a consultation standpoint, because they're out of state there's, um, you know, there there's things we can't do and things we can't do, uh, as far as the, as far as the relationship we're able to build, but, [02:00:00] um, the brain doesn't change.

[02:00:02] Right. You know, the, the information, the capacity to navigate that stuff doesn't change. And so we can help those folks. But if anyone's like, Listening to this podcast, they have a, they have a head that's screwed on their shoulders in a really deep, kind of good direction. So. Uh, no, that like you're you're, if this has intrigued you, your heading in the right direction, like follow that instinct.

[02:00:27] Um, that's what I tell a lot of people, anyone who calls the clinic, whether we're a great match for them or not. It's like, you are, you are in the right arena. You're looking for the right things. You are, you're grabbing for it. So, um, you have to reward that and say like, keep it up right now. Not every, you know, there's not one person that fits everybody, but if your head is in this sphere, Yeah, you're in a, you're in a good place.

[02:00:49] Yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you're just looking for it, if you're searching for the answers, whether you stumbled upon this, just searching for more sleep answers specifically, or if you're just regular listening and make it to the hour and a [02:01:00] half, I don't know. However long where we're at at this point and still listening that's that perhaps to you and the, uh, Know that proactive nature that you're taking, but remember to take action, I've put off sleep stuff for so long.

[02:01:11] Dave: [02:01:11] And that was something that I've, uh, I've seen the negative benefits of. Cause it was always something like, I know the importance of it, but I'm kind of doing what I can, but kind of not. And it's like had to, had to look myself in the mirror and be like, okay, there's definitely more, I need to be doing, I need more help with this.

[02:01:24] I need specific help someone, uh, much, much smarter than the need. Definitely. Definitely. Different we'll call it differently. Smart itself. Def just make sure you guys take an action on it. Even if it's just applying one or two things from the, uh, Huge amount of information that we poured out in this podcast.

[02:01:43] Uh, just make sure you're taking something in and doing that to, to move, continue to move, moving the right direction and make sure to take advantage of us. You know, I love hearing from you guys. Um, and I know Derek's the same with people that, uh, that reach out to him. So make sure to take advantage of that and, uh, Derek man, thanks for the thanks for the time.

[02:02:00] [02:01:59] And I am a, I'm very, very confident that you're going to be. Back again soon. Perfect. Well, and true intrude zoom meeting form. We'll end it on this because you can't go as zoom meeting without seeing someone.

[02:02:16] I thought you were employed. They're going to pull a chicken out or something. No, they're outside right now. Thank you. So we'll just leave it with Lloyd. Thanks a lot, Dan. It was a absolute pleasure. Thanks for listening today, guys. Unbelievable that even if you apply one thing from today's show, you're taking one step closer to living as the man you were made to be.

[02:02:37] Meaningful change doesn't happen overnight. So keep showing up and keep consistent every single day until good things start to happen. If you haven't already taken 60 seconds to write a review on whatever platform you're listening on, it goes a long way in growing this podcast and reaching other men just like you, that are hungry for more in their life.

[02:02:55] If you have any questions on today's show feedback or content, you want to see more [02:03:00] of shoot me a text. Yep. Text me (760) 477-4361 at (760) 477-4361. Let me know that you're listening to it. And so I can personally thank you for your support of myself and the show. That's it for today, guys, it's time to raise your standard for yourself.

[02:03:19] Stop settling for just getting by, go all in on your passions in the life you were made for. I love you guys and talk to you soon.

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Men Made for More Podcast

Optimizing Sleep For Health, Performance, Recovery, and Productivity with Dr. Derek Lawrence

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